224 britsur2

CarrieAnn

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 17:05:23 -0600 (CST)
From: CAH hyoppc01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Heart of Darkness
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Another thing, and this might be way off, was how Conrad used black/white or light/dark images. Usually people associate white with good and black with evil, but in this story, these two things intertwine with each other. For instance, the ivory (being its color),becomes a symbol of greed (European's) and destruction (the natives). Both white and black characters experience suffering which shows that neither race are completely good or evil. They both fall under the corruption in the world and as I see it, are experiencing equality (of course in a negative way).

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 17:19:04 -0600 (CST)
From: CAH hyoppc01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Duchess
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

About the Duchess one last time....I think her death was left to be a mystery for the reader. I don't think there is supposed to be "one" way that she died...it's all in how you interpret it.

Carrie

P.S.use your imagination!

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 20:02:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Bradshaw bradsj01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: Leda abd the Swan
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 20:03:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Michelle Dahl dahlm02@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Treacle
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Carrie, and anyone else who may not have been in class, I realize this will be review for most of you, but I found out that treacle was a type of mollasses or sweet syruppy stuff. To me it sounded like something that would be appealing to most children because it is sweet. Sorry it took me soooo long to reply.

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 20:07:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Bradshaw bradsj01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: heart of darkness
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 20:11:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Bradshaw bradsj01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: modernism
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 20:12:44 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Bradshaw bradsj01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject:
To: britsur2@TIGGER.stcloudstate.EDU

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 20:16:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Bradshaw bradsj01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: renaissance
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Gratefully,

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 21:00:03 -0600 (CST)
From: Michelle Dahl dahlm02@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: Heart of Tedium
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

In reply to tom's heart of darkness comment, I too found that I felt that Kurtz did not go crazy, but his journalist friend referred to hiom as extreme and I think that describes what happened to him. He learned about the people living in the congo and decided that their life style appealed to him more than his former life style and being an extreme kind of person, his changes may have seemed crazy to people who had not experienced the things that he had. Espacially to people who where very closed minded to new cultures and ways of life. Just an Idea.

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 21:04:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Bradshaw bradsj01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: determination
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 21:20:36 -0600 (CST)
From: Michelle Dahl dahlm02@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: School Kids
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Heather I really liked your comment on the dancer and the dANCE LINE OF AMONG school children and I think I also feel a lot like I'm not sure if I'm the dancer or the dance in my life. As a school teacher I feel many times when I'm with my students that I have to be a certain sort of person, because that is what a teacher is. Now, I terribly miss my students and I'm back in the position of being a student and i've found that the dance of life doesn't get any easier as a person gets older but we all learn as we go, for example, I've learned how to be much more organized since I've had children and tend to use every open moment to try to get school work done. I also must remind myself not to wish time away and not to give up even when it seems that all the hard work is not paying off. Persistence pays off in the end and life is just a dance, so dance it and try to enjoy every phase of it while you're there, since there is no going back and it really does fly way too quickly. Sorry if I got off track and went too deep.

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 21:24:56 -0600 (CST)
From: Sharon Cogdill mailto:scogdill@stcloudstate.edu
Subject: silly me
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Well, I can't even read my own syllabus, and I wrote it.

For Wednesday, we're reading T.S. Eliot's "The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock" and James Joyce's "The Dead." Many people believe that "The Dead" is the best short story ever written, but I personally wouldn't be able to choose one.

For Monday we'll read Hughes, Smith, and Orwell, with an emphasis on Orwell, though you absolutely need to know the poets as well.

scogdill

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 21:25:43 -0600 (CST)
From: Michelle Dahl dahlm02@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: Leda abd the Swan
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Heather, I'm not sure if I understood this one but I think the swan was raping Leda. This is the first one I've really felt the sex jumped out at me in so if I'm wrong some one please tell me. It seems these british writers do not need any help or extra credit given to the use of sex in theri poems. Some of them must of had sex on the brain.

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 21:41:29 -0600 (CST)
From: Michelle Dahl dahlm02@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: The wild Swans at Coole
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

The wild swans at coole again reminded me of my time in Germany. The swan was a big part of German history since it was Crazy King Ludwig's favorite bird and he named the ever famous Neuschwanstein castle, otherwise known to most americans as the Disney castle which is actually a replice of the original German castle, after the swan. It seems that the people in Germany still really respect the swan as a bird and I found it interesting that according to this poem, the British must have also. I also read a short story last quarter that was about a british man and his experience with a pair of swans. If I can find the title and author again, I really liked it and it was really short for any interested readers.

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 21:55:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Michelle Dahl dahlm02@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Short stories
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Hey classmates I just found the names of two really short stories that I read last quarter. They only had topics that were in comon with the swan poems and the circus, but the circus one was really about growing up for a little boy. I don't want to give the stories away so here are the titles and authors. Visitors by Walter De la Mare (swan one) and Let Me Fall Before I Fly by Barbara Wersba. (The Circus One). These were actually in the juevenile section of the SCSU library but I really liked them. Happy Reading!

Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 06:25:23 -0600 (CST)
From: Tom Lucas lucast01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Crazy Kurtz
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

I want to clarify something I said in class. It didn't seem worth trying to get another word in edgewise at the time, but I think I need to make a distinction.

I don't really think that Kurtz had gone crazy, but rather that the doctor and probably the outside world in general preferred to perceive things that way. It was evident that is what the doctor thought. If that is the case, then it becomes part of the lie, in that it is a denial by outsiders of how things really are. The important thing is the change that takes place which obviously can be interpreted different ways.

Now Marlon Brando, he's CRAZY.

Tom Lucas

Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 06:31:25 -0600 (CST)
From: Tom Lucas lucast01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Ephelants
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Of course, I read Orwell before the correction was made. Even if it is a preview for the rest of you, one major difference between "Elephant" and the anti-colonial theme of Conrad is that Orwell approaches from the first-person perspective and states rather blatantly how silly he feels being a part of the empire in India.

I won't summarize it for you because I know you want to read it yourself, but Orwell makes his points incredibly clear.

Tom Lucas

Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 06:38:07 -0600 (CST)
From: Tom Lucas lucast01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: reading the wall
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

I didn't give any advice in class on my reading style, as it might be somewhat unorthodox. Since Jarrett suggested we post something on it, here goes.

When I'm reading a wall of words like "Darkness," I generally will sit down and dig in for awhile till my brain starts to cramp, then I will close the book without marking it and go get a cup of caffeine. I generally will clean a few things up around the apartment cursing my fish tank, furniture, and anything else I see to avoid tossing my Norton in the trash. After about twenty minutes, I'll sit down, find the story, and skim it till I see something I don't recognize, usually a page or two before I gave up, and start in once again. I repeated this procedure about twelve times on Sunday.

I doubt that helps any one.

Tom Lucas

Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:17:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Sharon Cogdill mailto:scogdill@stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: reading the wall
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Tom wrote,

>When I'm reading a wall of words like "Darkness," I generally will sit down
>and dig in for awhile till my brain starts to cramp, then I will close the
>book without marking it and go get a cup of caffeine. I generally will
>clean a few things up around the apartment cursing my fish tank, furniture,
>and anything else I see to avoid tossing my Norton in the trash. After
>about twenty minutes, I'll sit down, find the story, and skim it till I see
>something I don't recognize, usually a page or two before I gave up, and
>start in once again. I repeated this procedure about twelve times on
>Sunday.

This very clear description reminds me how much I think the physical characteristics of the Norton itself contribute to the difficulty of reading some of these works. The publishers can't really put the book on thicker paper or make the type larger because thicker paper won't lie flat unless the pages are bigger and because people apparently won't buy a larger book.

Readability of type is actually pretty well understood, though, and the Norton (like all large anthologies of its type) violates the formula wildly. Readability is based on a formula that takes into account the size of the type, the leading (space between lines), the length of the line of type, and the opacity of the paper.

To be more readable, especially in a prose piece with paragraph breaks instead of lines of poetry, the book should have larger type, larger leading (between lines of type), shorter lines, and thicker paper. Readability increases comprehension because of the lighter load on working memory. And because the eye makes fewer errors going from the end of one line to the beginning of the next, which means less rereading.

You all have literacy skills adequate to reading under the conditions the Norton provides, but when I study something for class, I often get a copy that's easier to read. But then my eyes are aging. When paper, printing, and binding were much more expensive than they are now, books were printed in smaller type and the lines were unbelievably close togethe, and often the books were tiny themselves: a "pocket book" might be 2.5 by 3 inches. People who were literate had very high levels of literacy, and many people found reading too difficult. But then, many people also read the same things over and over again because while there were lots and lots of books if you lived in a major metropolis and had money, most of the population of England and America did not have that kind of access.

Anyhow, Tom, nice description. I really like your idea of not putting in a bookmark.

scogdill

Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:41:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Nicole Tatge tatgen01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: Leda abd the Swan
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 11:13:47 -0600
From: Paula Chesley 0742tsh@cloudnet.com (Tech High School)
Subject: lovesong
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Paula

Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 00:49:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Boldischar boldij01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Joyce
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

I just finished my first reading of Joyce's "The Dead," the first of many. I was and am so enthralled by this man that I had to write this.

I had previously read "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" by Joyce, and found that to be a superb novel. And after reading this short story, I can see why many would regard it as the greatest ever. I mean, I have dreams at night of being able to write like this.

I won't say anymore, not until I have another reading under my belt. However, I can not wait to discuss this in class, and that last sentence, ohmy...it was pure genius...

Jim

Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 12:14:20 -0600
From: Paula Chesley 0742tsh@cloudnet.com (Tech High School)
Subject: modernism
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

This will be a short posting, I'm pretty pressed for time. I don't know if any of my other posts are getting to you guysat all. but anyway.. I read the Dead last night and I'm recalling some stuff about modernism from Earlier classes. The modernist movement focused on exposing the shallow and trivial ways in which people during their time period socialized, right? I'm not sure if I would say "exposed" but commented on it. And a fair amount of the American expatriots wrote about war, too, I think.

Anyway, it's sure interesting as a movement; it seems so different from the other ones we've studied.

gotta go--se you at class tonight. Paula

Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 20:10:10 -0600 (CST)
From: Craig Dirkes dirkec01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: The Dead
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

It's too bad we didn't get to talk about "The Dead" tonight, so I want to say one or two things about it.

In one of Dr. Cogdill's submissions she said that "The Dead" is thought by some to be the best short story ever. My only conclusion to that statement is that it must be because I was really bored and my mind must stop where great literary minds keep on going.

I interpreted the work to be centralized mainly on Gabriel and his wife, which ended the whole thing. After tonight, I can really draw some strong parallels between Gabriel and Prufrock because they're both gutless wonders that can't always act on emotion and get sidetracked with potential esteem-drowning consequences, like hearing the words "That is not what I meant at all".

Craig Dirkes

Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 20:15:23 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Bradshaw bradsj01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: Crazy Kurtz
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 20:26:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Craig Dirkes dirkec01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: stevie
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

I like the poem "Pretty", and its author Stevie Smith, because they bent me over and belted me with modernism.

"Why is the word pretty so underrated?" Smith opens up with. This is todays language, and I felt this modernistic element in most all of his works. I would never have dreamed of reading such a line from a poet even fifty years before this. Smith's language seems so simplistic, and that's what I liked. It is poetry for all ages, no more spending a whole class period deciphering one poem. With this guy, I found I could read and enjoy.

To further my claim, reading "Exeat" reinforces this. It's just so readable! It's not even like a poem to me, it was just a cute little poem with a metephoric opening.

Craig Dirkes

Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 21:26:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Nickie Dietzdietzn01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Heart of Darkness
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

There were many themes and aspects of Joseph Conrad's Heart of Dardness that stru struck a cord with me, but the way the african people are referred to especially bothered me; for instance they were described as "the enemy", "savages", and less than human. I had the impression that the black mem were very underfed when Marlow describes them as "black shadows of desease and starvation" (Conrad 1770). The villages, that were at one time populated, were now only desolate sites for Marlow to sites for Marlow to observe.

The cannibals, who were employed to help with the journey, were only given money for food. Even wor,se throtting hippopotamus meat they brought had been throwmnn overboard. I didn't even know that they spoke english until a cannibal asks Marlow to catch a few savages, who were attacking the boat, because he was hungry and probably wanted to eat them: there is only one other instance when an African speaks, and it is to announce Kurts death. Kurts's influence over the "simple people" was unfortunate. I woul be willing to bet that the woman who tried to visit Kurts when he was sick and threw her hand in the air when they took him away was h took him away was his lover. The fact that pople would consider Kurts to be mad becau mad because he participated in the African religious ceremonies is preposterous, mow nowa days everyone is searching for their own spirituality and explanation for their lives. Most religions and ideas are a least tollerated, and if were're lucky we can accept other people's opions.

Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 22:56:29 -0600 (CST)
From: Nickie Dietzdietzn01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: Goblin Market
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

I understood that the juices were the juices that the govlins sqeezes over Lizzie when they tried to force her to eat the fruit, then Laura basically sucked them off her sisters face. The fact that Lizzie resisted the temptation of eating the fruit made the juices a kind of redemption for Laura.

Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 23:32:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Nickie Dietzdietzn01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: finishing
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Thought I might get cut off again so I wasn't taking any chances The Message is about the author who actually lived with a tribe of Aboriginies in Austrailia. She talks about their beliefs, my roomate told me a lot about it. Sounds really great.

Bye, Nickie

Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 23:39:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Nickie Dietzdietzn01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Herodias
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

In lines 195-197 part of the story can be found at http://www.stjohndc.org/saints/8809.hon "Deheading of the Glorious Prophet, Forerunner and Baptist, John" I'll try and get this right later but I'm running out of time,and don't want to get cut off. PARANOID!!

Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 23:44:57 -0600 (CST)
From: Nickie Dietzdietzn01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: F***
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

I SAVED THE BEGINNING OF THAT MESSAGE THEY RETURNED TO ME THAT did GET CUT OFF FOR THE THIRD TIME TONIGHT. How can I send it, can I. I just spent two hours writing and rewriting it getting cut off at the last sentance every ****** time.

Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 06:49:43 -0600 (CST)
From: Tom Lucas lucast01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Sinatrock
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

I feel like elaborating on my Sinatra-Prufrock connection I made in class last night. I mentioned that Sinatra is my point of reference when it comes to love songs, and there is a reason why I can use Sinatra here more than other singers.

Sinatra doesn't sing of his successes any more than he sings about his failures. This is probably why so many people, especially males, identify with his songs. Prufrock seems so much like a lover who just can't pull the trigger because of his own sense of inadequacy and therefore seems destined to failure. He recognizes his shortcomings. Sinatra also sings through his heartbreak, especially when he was in his forties and fifties and sang about his reminiscences including many failures. In a Rod Mckuen penned song, he sings, "I've seen my image in your eyes/dissolve in disappointed tears." He told Mckuen, "You really got inside me."

I'm guessing that Eliot is writing about many people he knows when he writes from Prufrock's perspective. A failure, yes, but a failure who so wanted to succeed.

Tom Lucas

Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 14:04:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Craig Dirkes dirkec01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: To Kill a Buffalo
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

I really enjoyed and identified with Orwell's "Shooting an Elephant". I've been waiting for a work that implications for hunting because something in this struck a nerve. The two passages I wish to elaborate on are:

"A sahib (white gentleman) has got to act like a sahib; he has got to appear resolute, to know his own mind and do definite things".

"(Sometimes it always seem worse to kill a LARGE animal".

On Nov. 2 I went with my brother to South Dakota to sleigh a buffalo. It's a long story and I love telling it, but I have a feeling that if I make this too long you all will just delete it because it's gonna look too time consuming. Anyway, I found those two passages extremely pertinant to my experiences and the aftermath.

I've hunted plenty, but to the guides that took us out I was just another city slicker. I was, in effect, a "sahib" and had to make them think I knew what I was doing. And I did know what I was doing, but because he assumed I didn't, I had to make everything look like I was a damn expert on big game hunting. I enjoyed that qoute because it's so true situationally. If one is going to do a certain deed that dastardly, controversial, or whatever, a certain amount of knowhow or definitive sense must coincide, along with absolute control.

The second passage I guess relates to my conscience. When hunting, things die. When things die, it's natural to ponder what in fact you've done or taken away. When I shot that buffalo, for the first time I almost felt bad for the same reason Orwell says it seems worse to kill a large animal. The way my mind worked was like this: the bigger the animal, the longer it's lived. The longer it's lived, the more life/experiences they've had. In Clint Eastwood's "Unforgiven", he says "It's a Hell of a thing killing a man (buffalo). You take away everything they got, and everything they'll ever have".

Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 14:16:43 -0600 (CST)
From: Craig Dirkes dirkec01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Hughes
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

For the same reason I enjoyed "shooting an Elephant", I liked Hughes' "Pike". It's another outdoorsy poem that gets me in the mood and makes me wish the new season would begin that much faster.

I jsut liked how Hughes made the pike out to be a gracious killer. "Killers from the egg" he says, but counters that with "They dance on the surface among the flies". He furthers their evil sense with stalking illustrations, like "Or hung in an amber cavern of weeds", "In ponds, under heat struck lily pads", "And indeed they spare nobody", and "The jaws' hooked clamp and fangs".

It's almost like the scientific view of a great-white shark or something. To the non-scientific civilians, we view sharks as man eaters and get scared to death of them. But on every one of those shows on the "Discovery Channel", you can be sure that the narrator will make it clear that these animals are beautiful and precious. Craig Dirkes- I FORGOT MY NAME ON THE BUFFALO SUBMISSION IN CASE YOU WERE WONDERING WHO WROTE THAT.

Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:45:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Jarett Bies biesj01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: determination
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

With determination as an impetus, we should all hope to one day abandon things like "i'm sure i'm way off on this pt. but ..." and "i'm so much less studied in this area"

be determined with the works. it works.

jarett

Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:47:03 -0600 (CST)
From: Jarett Bies biesj01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: Crazy Kurtz
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Tom,

good comments. i liked em.

sometimes class does get a bit vine-ridden and slippery.

pull out the machete and cleave thru.

jarett

Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:47:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Boldischar boldij01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Joyce vs. J. Alfred
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

I was disappointed that "The Dead" didnt get any time in class on wed., and i hope we DO get around to discussing it eventually. But, if not, here's womething I found;

In comparing the protaganist Gabriel in "The Dead" with J. Alfred Prufrock, I could see the similarity in that both charcters, after a series of events or realizations, came to conclude that there IS a big picture, that there is more than just their own individual lives going on in this world.

Eliot brings this realization to Prufrock in a different way that Joyce did for Gabriel. The main differnce, of course, is that Eliot wrote a poem and Joyce a short story. As a result, Eliot's poem is considerably shorter, but what remains is very dense text. Like Dr. Cogdill mentioned, all the redundancy was removed. Joyce presents a wide open tale of Gabriels evening, with fantstic details on everything from the snow outside making Gabriels buttons squeak to the glorious tabl-set for dinner. I mean, Joyce goes so far as to give us the colors of the raisens on the table.

Where Eliot cut out what he saw as redundant, Joyce piled up the descriptions. The effect on me was that I could actually see, in vivid detail, the surroundings in nearly every setting of "The Dead," while "Lovesong.." presented a greater challenge of having to suck out as much as possible from the words given to you.

Jim

Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 05:11:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Tom Lucas lucast01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Orwell the Uptight
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

It is refreshing to read an author who so blatantly states what he means. Jeff, I think you might agree with that sentiment. I think Orwell's list of rules at the bottom of 2241 should be taught as a standard in all college-level composition courses. I must admit that when I occasionally look back at my high school writing, I got away with a lot of B.S. So much so that once when I didn't have a clue about an essay question on a test, I wrote my way around the topic well enough that I got full credit even though I didn't know what I meant. I felt guilty.

One of the things that I hope we all learn as we ease our way through college is to think as critically as Orwell does in his "Politics" piece. Of course, it would be a shame to have to be pissed all the time.

Tom Lucas

Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 06:39:13 -0600 (CST)
From: Tom Lucas lucast01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: More Orwell
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

More thoughts on Orwell and language. A few years back when I was unloading trucks to make ends meet, I met a Russian immigrant who was having a hard time with the language. We spoke at length about the difficulty of learning it in Russia then trying to converse in America. This must be taken in the context of a truck driver's environment, but he said that the average American conversation used only about twenty different words that were the same all over the country, and half of those words were profane. A good observation.

If we don't pay attention to what is being said, then the double-speak that Orwell refers to will continue to run rampant. As we know, bankruptcy is now referred to as "positive restructuring." Metaphors such as "colder than hell," "snowing like a banshee," and "up the paddle without a creek" will continue to be common. And my personal favorite put-down, "I could care less" might never revert back to its original legitimate put-down form, "I couldn'nt care less."

I don't claim to have Orwellian insight. Just food for thought.

Tom Lucas

Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 08:50:27 -0600 (CST)
From: sammoh01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: rule of thumb
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

When I was reading Orwell I began to think a bit. He had talked about how many writers would take a phrase and use it inappropriatly. Or, the phase would come to mean something completly different from its original one. This made me think of two such cases. Thie first is, the rule of thumb. I herd it all the time at my shcool in North Dakota, yet it wasn't until I was 21 did I find out what it origanaly ment, and then swore never to tolorate to hear it ever again. It came about, if I remember correctly, during America's colonization. At this time woman were still considered property of their husband, for him to do with at will. Well in a long progression of modifications, I'll outline it quickly, among these rights of the husband was to, if his wife did ANYTHING to upsett hi, go down town and pick of this head iron thing that was locked over his wife's head. This had a mital piece that would protroud into her mouth so that if she closed her mouth it would slice her tongue in two. Her husband would then pull her around town on a chain...so everyone would know that she was a bad wife. After time, people thought that this was not right, so they gave the husband the right to beat his wife to any extent that he thought served her punishement, he could beat her to her last breath. Then they said, they being the ruling body in the colonizations (I guess), that he could beat her with a switch or stick, as long as he didn't intentionally kill her. Finally the laws were changed one more time and it stated that a man could only beat his wife with a switch, stick, that was no wider that his thumb...thus the rule of thumb. People use that phrase today, in common statments! Not many peole realize what they are, in essence, talking about when they use this it also makes me sick to think that this was a LAW! Just thouht I would share this dark shadow in our counties history. I think all of Orwell's points on grammer make perfect sense. There were light bulbls flashing constently throught his essay.

Sorry if I sounded like I was ranting, it's to early, too late, for me to not to be blunt. Heather Sammons...Good Night bhatatE
edi he twatyanerg's e

Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 10:09:09 -0600 (CST)
From: Nicole Tatge tatgen01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: rule of thumb
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Yeah, Thanks Heather...I remember learning about the history of that and still hearing college professors using the statement. I don't know whether to boil over or run out of the room. But Tom brought up a good point too (with Orwell), about how the majority of people don't really "know" what they are saying.

For example, a few of my roommmates make comments without knowing where they came from and what they really mean. And I never used to say anything becuase I knew that they didn't say them KNOWINGLY. BUT--I've come to realize that I'm just the weak link in the chain if I don't say something, because it only perpetuates the idea that it's ok...

the prophetic folk singer ani difranco says,

"some chick says thank you for saying all the things I never do I said you know the thanks I get is to take all the shit for you it nice that you listen it'd be nice if you joined in as long as you play that game girl you're never gonna win..."

yep, as usual, ani's direct-to-the-point-kick-em-where-it-hurts voice does it. Someone else is always taking the punch.

Hope the isn't too far off. But anytime I feel I can work ani in I use it. Maybe it was Tom's Sonatra (sp?) influence. * *

nicole

Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 10:32:58 -0600 (CST)
From: Nicole Tatge tatgen01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: Hughes
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Unlike other poets that we've read, Hughes seems to have a sense of the "Earth Religions" in his writing. Although the Romantic poets were considered Nature Poets, (in my reading of them) they still held a sense of organized religion.

I think someome else commented on the "predator" aspect that he personifies in nature. The effect is chiliing. "River" reminds its audience how small they really in the path of its power. Despite our (humans) scattering and burying of the river it only takes a "sign in the sky" for the "rending of veils" (what a great image, those two words place so close together--the violence of "rending" and the delicate nature of "veils.") to "wash itself of all deaths."

"Theology" has become my poem of the week. Hughes turns the heirarchical structure of 1 man 2 woman 3 animal/nature upside-down and leaves God calling querulously in the end! With a title like Theology, and a first line beginning with "no" you know you're in for a good poem.

So here we are, Hughes places us (the readers) as living in the dark intestine of the serpent as it lives in Paradise. SO--the thing that is stadning in between humans and Paradise is the serpents body, its skin, its myth, that wer've created. Wow-za.So where is God calling from...hmmm, and is it hot in there with all the digesting food? Just a thought.

I hope this doesn't step on anyone's religious toes, but I have to admit mine fell off quite some time ago, so stamp away.

have a good weekend,

nicole

Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 14:09:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Jarett Bies biesj01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: Orwell the Uptight
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

Tom makes good pts. yet we should consider that at times, even master Orwell violates his set of rules.

his clarity rocks; but we should also consider him as less-than-godly.

jarett

Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 12:42:45 -0600 (CST)
From: Nicole Tatge tatgen01@tigger.stcloudstate.edu
Subject: Re: To Kill a Buffalo
To: britsur2@tigger.stcloudstate.edu

A few points on Orwell's Politics and Language:

His comment on the use of verb phrases instead of verbs, and long prepostitional and conj. phrases instead of precise word choice in WRITING, I thought of why we use those in speech besides the point he brought up about indirect,cover-up type operations. They are used to give the speaker time to formulate their idea/response when in a conversational setting. Like...

"Let's say for instance, Roy emits a certain sense of elation over the fact becuase....

then they go on to tell why, instead of saying

"Roy was happy because...

In the first sentence the speaker usually drags their mind through the long sentence to extend their respond time. But, if the speaker knows immediately how he/she will respond than it's likely that they would a sentence similar to the second one. But, Orwell's not talking about speaking you say, he's talking about writing!

So let's say that the written word is the closest one can come to making a thought tangible (although some word argue art also). When we write we are immediatly making choices, we are in a sense pinning down our thoughts. (Reminds me of the buggish Prufrock squirming on a pin) Writers can go back, look at their thought as it sits in one place (becuase in your head is is continaully changing and swarming around) So Orwell would say, "hey man, you have the opportunity to clean your thoughts up here, what up? Don't leave us in abstraction!"

In writng (and through revision) we don't need that "time" to think, those extra phrases. He's asking us to "invent" our own visualization of what we see, of what we are thinking instead of pasting together "phrases" of others

He makes a comment about how this essay is not addressing literature. Yet I don't know how off it would be to look at literature under this light...somethings might not work, literature somewhat relies on making "spaces" in writing. But when Orwell writes that writers need to "choose [their words] through pictures or sensations" I think that is an idea that should be applied through all writing.

I think of it as having to describe a forgien film (with no subtitles) to a friend. To really get the person to understand you have to describe the picutres the sensation you get in each movement they make. No abstractions there.

sorry so long, he has a lot of killer ideas in a short essay,

nicole

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